The bad and ugly

[Advent Childhe]

*bows to Velata*

Velata is a greater wordsmith than I will ever become. I fade in the aura of your greater prowess!!

From the more relaxed and less offensive tone in Corrusader's recent posts, I detect a hint of improvement. Though the more upsetting posts must still be raw in the minds of those these posts targeted, one must realize the improvement.

Corrusader, I applaud you. By my logic, I've no right to comment so harshly on your opinions. However, by your logic, the comments that I have posted should have been drastically worse. For an example of such a drastic comment, please review the awe-inspiring thread made by Pika. Here, I must admit, I could not have ever done a post such as that. Pika, your ability in the extension of metaphors is unmatched by any here. Mad props for you!!

Ignorance is bliss? Only the ignorant would say that. The variety of reasons, philosophies, and explainations behind my comment here have already reached volumes more numerous than I can ever read and more complex than I can hope to understand totally. If indeed you seek this sliver of bliss in this stark four-dimensional reality, than continou this safe deception by all means.

A change of topics must intervene the path that this thread has taken. Corrusader, who had started out so bravely, and some say foolishly, had changed the tonality of his comments. Though I would welcome an intellectual debate over the many unanswered questions of life, I do not wish for this discussion over opinions to continou. Corrusader was right. I do not know Corrusader. By my logic, I must not comment so brashly.

However, by Corrusader's logic, I am merely supporting my views on the only material that I have... Corrusader's posts.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Yours,
Wayward Wayne

[Corrusader]

After this post is done, I question myself. Do I REALLY have to disagree on EVERYTHING? To which I answered, I must make them see me with greater clarity.

In rebuttal to Velata's view on ignorance.

You are right in that I am trying to derive impartiality from ignorance. What I am talking about is the theoritical reasons that the jury system exist. Their lack of knowledge on details of the investigation and crime is going to help them get clearer views on the case. This is my point. I am aware that dark side exists and juries are actually chosen to the benefit of crown and defendent. However, that deters from my argument because the realistic exploitation of the jury system is out of the scope of my argument.

I'm saying, as a society, we WANT juries in our courts because we hope they provide untainted opinions as they're not involved with the case. Thus, ignorance is sometimes perferred then knowledge. I'm not talking about if in reality, the jury system is good. I am proving my point of "sometimes, ignorance is perferred."

In rebuttal to the Shakespear example:

You are saying Shakespear used everyday language of his time. Therefore he actually have good art. So my accusation of his art being bad is inaccurate, thus my example "carries little weight." Perhaps I did not make myself enough. I am not ACCUSING Shakespear of creating bad art. I wholy agree that he HAD good art. However, as language evolve, his art decays. Nowdays, no one readily understand him anymore. Therefore I said he have bad art. I quote myself.

"Shakespear's medium is plays. He used old english and comedy that no one now days get. I can't understand what he's talking about half of the time. He, in my opinion, has bad art (language, style, and stuff.)"

His bad art is no one's fault as you pointed out. However, I remain that my claim that no one readily understand him is accurate; And I restate what he kept me reading his work is the plot, and his poems.

Rebuttal to it being bad to change one's mind:

I don't think it's weak to change one's mind. I think it takes courage and honesty to say "I'm wrong, I'm sorry, I actually mean another thing." I speak of my opinion to the best of my ability, yet as the discussion wear on, my views were changed by other participants (such as wayward, Bryan and others.) I come to the realization that I might be off with some of my ideas. Thus that must be changed. To say such thing is a vice in character is to say learning is bad; changes are bad; improvements are bad.

I agree changing my view WILL make me discredible. I say again I'm NOT trying to be credible and authoritive. I say again that I'm no expert on this. I'm not trying to CHANGE the mangas into what I think they should be. I'm voicing my opinon on what the authors can try to improve. Repeating myself, what I said is what I think what could have been done. To decide IF such things SHOULD be done is the hard burden of the artist.

I have a preconceived notion of what a "good" manga is. Everyone does. It's called an "opinion," a "taste," a "bias." I'm yelling my opinion for all to hear. If it makes you guys feel better, I'll say it again. YOU DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW MY OPINION. IT IS NOT THE LAW! The humble plead is for you to read it, and take it for what credibility you warrant it. Nothing more.

Because I am only one person. I can not give more then my own opinion. I do hope what I said is echoed by many, but I certainly can't say for sure. I pointed out where in the plot I'm confused about. I said general things like "my interest fades." However, YOU make the judgement on whether I'm right. You're the artist, not me. It's YOUR story not mine. Tell it the way YOU want to.

@ WaywardWayne You are right. This is not the thread to debate philosophy. And the debate on ignorance should end.

You are right again. My logic (I'm assuming you're referring to that for an opinion to be heard, it must be poignant,) does encourage you to have a more bitter tone. I have no problem of you doing that either. What I'm rediculing is that you're doing exactly what you're telling me NOT to do. This forces you to either drop your argument, or to change your tone. (You can talk however you want, it's just for argument sake, that is.)

I have read Pika's post and made a comment. I did choose to ignore his post in hope to avoid a flame war. As I have said, he lost me enough of the time that I gave up on finding out each sentense mean. I guess his asshole filter worked well. A WINNER IS HIM!

P.S. Has anyone seen the goatse man?

[Liz]

I... yeah, wow , should have come to this section first
Now that it's around 3 in the morning and after 3 days of advanced acoustics ... I'm just gonna reply to the parts that I can comprehend for now...

As a moderator I can't believe we almost had another flame-war ... Since things didn't seem to get really bad and if Hugo didn't do anything about it I guess I'll leave them...?

(>>Corrusader)
Anyway as an artist I appreciate feedbacks... Thanks for your thoughtful comments and I can see that you've really read into the story . I know I tend to lose track and either dramatize things or move too much ahead of myself in plot development... I think there are some follow-ups, however, coming up in the later chapters, which would hopefully make things more clear. (I'll try to watch out for things along the way too)

Oh, there's also this side-story that I'm planning to do (YES, even before I started drawing the prologue, that's how much ahead of myself I can be ), which might answer one of the questions you raised.

[Velata]

... if I may...?

I would like to first state that I acknowledge all of the new points brought forth by Corrusader in regards to my recent post. Corrusader's rebuttals, as he chose to call his recent opinions, explained himelf much more succintly. As I have stated in the beginning of the last post, I have intended to respond to, not so much what he has written, but the style that he has written in much earlier. It was meant to be a critique of his style, and should have been posted much earlier in this thread, hence my dubbing of it as a "late response."

I believe that there is a lot of merit in what Corrusader has written. I will also acknowledge my own glaring fault of not conveying that message properly, earlier in the last passage. For that, I apologise.

The last passage was a personal response, from me - who is perhaps no authority in these matters anyway - to the style of Corrusader's passages written as a critique of the mangas presented in the Crumpled Paper magazine. If anything, it was a suggestion - masked much, much too well, I am afraid - to perhaps help Corrusader to make his future arguments stronger, his examples more efficient, and his opinions sound more well-founded than just a man's bare opinions, backed-up only by his own words. It was also supposed to help prevent future backlashes from other people who will have read this thread in the forum, and feel that they have a personal grudge against the person who has made all these comments.

I conceed to the fact that Corrusader has been very, very brave, first to have placed some searing, but insightful critiques about the artworks featured in the magazine. Next, I can but lose myself in the grace that Corrusader has shown under the constant bombardment of people who found his critiques hard to swallow. And lastly, and mostly, the courage of Corrusader to admit that there has been changes in his point-of-view.

No... change is not bad... it is something that we should all embrace. In this inconsistant "stark, four-dimentional reality" that we live in, perhaps the only thing that is constant is change itself....

For all of that I have stated above, I must applaud, and bow my head to Corrusader, for such a fine example of extraordinary courage and bravery. As I have stated before, I admire what you have done, and would whole-heartedly encourage you to post further comments to this forum, for they are valuable to the magazine indeed.

I would also like to add this, for posterity's benefit, if I may. Although Corrusader has first appeared on this forum with a slightly tainted image of himself, he has shown the rest of this forum his mettle, and that was more than enough to impress us with who he really is. That, I believe, is truly remarkable.

As I've stated in my previous post in another thread, we are not here to fight a flame war. We are not here to throw our seething raw ideas at each other, in the vain hope to forcibly conform anyone else to our own point of view. I believe everyone here could probably take something away from this specific thread of the forum, the good, the beautiful, the bad and the ugly.

P.S.:
1. Since forum anonymity is, and should be respected, all the pronouns here referring to Corrusader are made out of convenience only. I apologise if Corrusader is of a female gender.

2. We can't be wordsmiths all, and I myself certainly do not pride myself as one. Long-winded, that's what I am.

3. I would like to thank my editor, as well as Wayward Wayne for his rather brilliant way of describing this existance of ours. Thank you to all.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Bryan]

does any one get the feeling that this is starting to drift away from the topic, and turning into a passive flame war about styles of critiquing art... u know the kind where u only c smoke and no fire? hmmm...

[Advent Childhe]

Greetings:

Its late... its always late.

HM Yuan I understand you perfectly. It does seem that way. However, clashing of opinons, especially on such a fickle and subjective subject such as art, will always occur.

I do not ask why the plague kills
I do not ask why the plains burn
I do not ask why does this thread burn with this subtle flame.

(grin)

Yours,
Wayward Wayne,

PS: Thankyou Velata. It is elating to see another person using the 4-dimensional comment.

[Tim]

Wow. I retract my comment on long writing. This has become a stimulating discussion. It's almost like sitting with a bunch of intellectuals (or pseudo-intellectuals, which aren't necessarily bad) and discussing the world over tea or coffee at some cafe (or cafeteria, as the case may be). Only, this time I've got my tea and am in front of a computer. This has proven to be quite an experience. I've never used a forum for anything other than school related, so this is new to me. And I've learned a lot. thx

This Pseud's signing off.

P.S. I've changed the heading to be more reflective of what this has turned out to be. And everyone (esp. fans of Trigun and western style comics) should go and see The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (Il Bueno, il Bruto et il Cattivo). Okay, not "everyone", but still it's highly recommended.

[Seph]

On an off note in response to Tim's last post:

The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly... as in Clint Eastwood's famous movie? I never even knew there was a Spanish version to that name out...

And adding to that recommendation, people might as well watch the other two of the three movie set also, (A Fistful of Dollars and For a Few Dollars More). They all focus around 'the man with no name' and are a Must Watch for western series fans.

... Man, I feel like I'm on a commercial.

[Bryan]

btw... did someone remove the good part from the title again? or am i just blind?

[Tim]

The Good the Bad and the Ugly is actually an Italian film! It's filmed by an Italian director (Sergio Leone), but in english featuring some western actors in a western. It's the famous Spaghetti Westerns which also include A Fistful of Dollars and For A Few Dollars More (also by Leone). Out of the 3 of them I've seen A Fistful of Dollars. Tarantino pays homage to this style (as well as that of the Japanese Zato-Ichi -The Blind Swordsman films, as well as many others) in Kill Bill. But I think we're going on a tangent here. Tangents within a framework, I suppose.

[Seph]

Seriously?! They were originally Itallian filmed? (Why did I think Spanish? Shows you my skills with foreign languages!) OI! I have all three movies on DVDs and I never knew that. Wow. And yeah, I would recommend those movies. Try to find the other two or something! I believe The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is the most famous of the three, also the last of the three. I was never a western fan and I loved them all.

And talking about tangents, I think we've deviated from the post topic quite far. Oh wells.[/color]

[Tim]

Hey -could I borrow your DVDs? I'll trade you Once Upon A Time In The West to borrow A Fistful of Dollars. I'm curious as to how Leone's first film is like.

BTW, my film course will be screen The Good The Bad and The Ugly sometime later this term (I don't have the syllabus in front of me). They screen the movies at Innis Town Hall (which is a film theatre), and they dont' check attendance to see who is there. The screening will be on a monday nite though. Any takers? (and yes Steph, we've taken the subject WAY off topic)