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Post by Corrusader on Oct 6, 2004 14:54:48 GMT -5
Some people are too timid to give critisms, even more are friends and not in suitable position. I, fortunately qualify in neither of those, and I cared enough to point out things that are done wrong about the magazine, in hope that it might get fixed. Crumpled Paper is in its infancy, therefore it is excusable for the mistakes that it makes. However, the only way any project can grow and mature is for it to realize what has gone wrong; and seek ways to fix it. Looking through the forum, I found no such critisms, and I am both surprised and saddened. The magazine is less then enjoyable in its current state and please, hear me out. I can walk away with things unsaid if I want to, this is often my tendency. However, I found the idea of a comic magazine so amazing I can not let it burn in its current state. This is the purpose of this post, and no insults are intended what-so-ever. Being the artist/creator of a manga of about 400 4x11'' pages, I feel quite qualified to make the comments I am going to make below. GENERAL: * The cover of the magazine is impeccable, and therefore nothing bad can be said about it. However that is about the only thing I liked about the issue. * The content I have quite some things to say. Firstly, to my understanding, this is a magazine about pictures, art and manga. So why are there so much text? I might have misunderstood, I might have judged it wrong, but the cover, and back cover and the front few pages said to me this is a magazine of mangas. This is not editorial or fantasy or other text based magazine. It is this VERY FACT that it's a manga magazine that makes it so special. To take away from that understanding is to take away from the manga itself. * I'm sure the person doing the printing knows this already, but just to rub it in more, I'll say it again. The quality for the manga is a printing nightmare. The fact that the text bubbles in the manga are illigeble is the most blaring, fatal, puke-inducing, nausia-causing attention diverting, and flow disturbing mistake of all! The blurry text is like a bullet shooting the magazine in the foot. Crashing it before it takes off. If you're gonna do a magazine, make it readable. * The pictures in the mangas are pixeliscious also, but that is easy tolerated when compared to the text. Readers should not have to make up their own story. MANGAS: * Generally, the mangas make up the heart and soul for the magazine, so they has to be good. Therefore, I will critisize every manga in turn. However, I find they all suffer a common flaw, that is the plot. In a manga, what is REALLY IMPORTANT is not the art, not the layout, not the language, not the style, but the STORY. If an author has a great story and can show that story on paper as he/she envisioned, he will be a successful author/artist. The art is a distant second when compared to the story and presentation of that story. Take for example of the several popular webcomic below. www. nuklearpower.com (8-bit theatre takes it's art almost exclusively from the CG of Final Fantasy I. It has less then 10 poses for each character to use, however, it told an awesome story. The author (Brian something) gave each protaganist incredible character, and made their adventure interesting PURELY on what they say. 8-bit theatre is easily one of the most popular webcomics on-line. It has a tremendous amount of fanbase. There are so many fans that the author makes a living purely on the donations made by fans who visit his site.) www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript ( The order of the stick is another AWESOME web-comic. Guess what it's art consist of? STICK FIGURES. It's purely stick figures oriented comic. However it's also got a ton of story to tell, and it portraits a comical side to the D&D fantasy adventures. Each of the characters again has incredible amount of character to tell, and the simple character designs kept the overall comic clean.) Think about the very popular Japanese manga 蜡笔小新. Tell me about its art. Is it good? However, it's got a story to tell, and it tells it well. I think over 100 volumes of that series can prove my claim quite adquetely. Therefore it's extremely important that a manga needs a GOOD STORY, which I'm sorry to say, all of the mangas of this issue lack. I will explain, from an reader's view, how that is so. Please understand now, a reader is not going to read a manga two times, or three times, to try and understand what the author is trying to say. If he can't get it the first time, you need to explain it better. *Utopian underworld: The first frame is impressive. It sets the story well. The story has to do with a school. The student is late, and he needs to do push-ups. Then something weird happens. If it's a era of war and they're doing combat skills, why are they in front of desks? If they're learning magic, why are they not DOING magic? Why DO they watch Derek do push-ups all day? War is an emergency, time is of essence, WHY ARE they wasting time like that? All those loop-holes distract from the plot of the story. Flip the page, WHAT'S GOING ON??? What does this has to do with the main plot? The different perspectives, although cute, distracts from the plot. The fight scene contain a VERY BIG mistake. Similar character designs. I am confused to which person is which. The time I took to figure out who is who distrubed the very fast-paced flow of the fight. The girl is just STUPID. It totally takes away from the suspension of disblief. Then the falling off the building scene confused the hell out of me until I went back to the begining of the scene and figured out they're ON SOME CEILING. This as you can probably tell, distrubed the flow again. The following sequence is better done then rest because it made sense. Even with things like "why is Tiffany suddenly standing up?" and "why is Mr. Clean allowing such fights in his class?" did not break the comic too badly. Then the guy popped from the cielling. He landed on guy with Mawhawk. I was like "Who are all those characters???" and I was also like "What's going on, is the explosion from the zappy attack?" After reading the comic, I believe Mr. Clean's perspective suits me the best. I am sure you have great ideas, Joerick. However, you REALLY have to work on how to emphasis what you want to show. The comic greatly needs more focus and unity. Have you the time, plan what you're going to draw a lot more. If I can't get a general feeling for a comic in the first episode, I'm likely not going to care what happens next. I mean, who's the protagnist? Tiffany? The guy from the dream? Or Derek? What's the story? I know there's a war, but it doesn't' look like a story about wars. Is it school yard fighting thing? If so then what's the dream about? What are they trying to do? See Joerick, focus your story more, and try to make the story understandable to your readers, not just get as much story out as possible. I walked away from your comic remembering only one thing; "Mr. Clean is in it." Emmm... I have to go home for now, I'll write about the rest of the comic later. Don't worry, every comic will get one.
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Post by Pocket on Oct 6, 2004 16:25:18 GMT -5
You.... You're really some piece of work, aren't you? I know some people take advantage of internet anonimity to be a jerk but you're just asking to be flamed or something. Where do you get off as some professional manga critic pointing out errors and telling people how to express themselves? I thought all the mangas had good stories since they're all introductory comics and they're mostly setting up a foundation on which the REAL stories will be built/told. People don't offer this type of criticism because they're timid or they're friends of the artist. It's because it's impolite to say "this sucks, that sucks". How heartless are you that you would think that this was a good idea to post? My last 2 points to keep this brief. - It's Brian Clevinger. - Crumpled Paper is an art magazine, not specifically for mangas. Art includes poetry, stories and other non-pictorial forms of expression. ...
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Post by Genna on Oct 6, 2004 17:24:40 GMT -5
First and foremost, I'd be the first to admit that things need to be improved for future issues. I appreciate all comments, but I definitely am aware of ALL of yours already. And trust me, no one working on the magazine is so retarded that we plan on sitting still and not improve, because that's kinda the tone I got from you. you know - a kind of condesceding one? which I guess you thought we'd appreciate. The learning curve for any endeavor such as this is pretty fucking steep. This is a no brainer. Luckily I learn pretty fucking fast, and our zine will no doubt get better, but please don't try and take credit when it does. I'm most exasperated by your suggestions that we're not at all self-critical, and if weren't for your insightful comments, we would have no idea, we'd be absolutely clueless on how to proceed. should I thank you for rescuing us from "burning"? considering that we're pretty lucky to exist at all, I'm pretty pleased with our first attempt. Please don't be saddened that there aren't haven't been any criticisms, because people have approached me and given me suggestions. I had many suggestions to give myself in fact, and don't sweat it- we have lots of plans on how we can improve. Finally - congratulations on doing a long comic. it is very difficult to do so. and thanks for reading our magazine.
One final note to the rest of you, because if I don't go I'm going to fail design. I'm very glad that our extremely small staff that gathered was able to pull off this fucking MIRACLE over a couple of months in the summer - from the birth of the idea to the final product. and I can't wait for the next issue, cuz one comment that I continuously got was the obvious potential for this magazine to grow. That's one of the reasons, I'm excited about the new staff coming on board (now or in near future) we've passed some pretty tough critics whose opinions I highly respect, and I have been more than willing to take the suggestions they have given me as well. so the future's looking bright. The problem with the printer has been sorted out (FINALLY!), and appropriate people have been yelled at severely and compensation is received. so that one's already taken care of.
Please feel free to give comments and suggestions. (even if don't feel comfortable posting here, you can pm me or email me, or talk to me if you know me - I'm pretty approachable I think.) We are in our infancy, I mean issue 1 volume 1 lol, and it is wise to learn and improve. Some people here in this forum, not including Corrusader, have already. But please be polite, and you know, the basics, be respectful cuz no one deserves ANYONE looking down on them.
Lastly (for real this time), short stories, poetry, extended fictions are more than welcome as submissions. CP is NOT a pure manga magazine.
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Post by Corrusader on Oct 6, 2004 19:26:54 GMT -5
This is a continuation from the first post, since it's so long already, I do not want to lengthen it even more. Pocket I read the magazine. As a reader, I have the right to my own opinions, and as a Canadian citizen I have the right to publicly state that opinion. Seeing how this is the comments and ideas section, I reasoned this is a good place to put it. I regret brining up that I did a comic myself as that seemed to have the implication that I am an expert on this kind of thing. Which I am not. I am merely a reader with an opinion, and I thought here'd be a good place to put them. Please consider my opinions not as facts from some "critique" but as an opinion, which is the intention. I find compliments keep the interest going, and suggestions make the work better. The fact that I didn't put Brian Clevinger is because I don't want to pretend I know his name off by heart. I want to give off the impression that I am just the next guy with something to say. Also, I'm really not trying to be a jerk. Quite contrarily, the fact I love the magazine so much made me spend hours on this thread instead of preparing a calc quiz, 2 midterms, a lab, and all the other engineering shizzle. If I want to waste my time, there ARE better ways. P.S. I am prepared to be flamed. It won't be the first time nor the last time I get my ass kicked on a forum. Genna Sorry for the crude term and sharp suggestions. I often find that if the language isn't strong, the idea isn't heard. I'm glad you are aware of all my concerns. I just thought that if I say it again, it'd become more appearant how important it is to get it fixed. It's like failing a subject. One is going to be yelled at again and again although all those yelling are probably aware that one knows what they're saying already. I know that this thread is not going to be appreciated. No one likes to hear where their work sucked. However this is something that needs to be said in my opinion, and be it flames or blizzard, I'm saying it. Really, I'm not suggesting you have no self criticizing abilities at all. I'm merely pointing out what I think could have been done better. If you're aware, great. If not, better now then ever. Maybe because I'm so wordy you think I'm accusing you of being some idiot. However, that is only done because I want my comments be clear as well as it's loud. Truthfully, not an ounce of disrespect is in me for you and the staff. I realize this is the best you can do at the time, and I admire you for your zeal. What I am saying is "as a reader, there are something I don't like, see if you can do something about it." I then try to explain my opinion; perhaps too thoroughly. Your defensive stance and anger is understood well, and I don't mind, really. Please just keep what I say in mind when doing the next issue (IF YOU HAVN'T ALREADY). P.S. I'm really glad that the text problem is fixed. I know this thread probably hurt you editors and artists more then anything you say are going to hurt me, simply because you spent way more time in the magazine then I have writing this. However, please understand the genuine intent behind my poignant words, and hate me, not my suggestions. Also, I'm looking down at no one, I would like to remind you that the amount of time I spend commenting shows how much respect I have for each and everyone of you. *I use to be a sucky exorcist but after a lot of shibs I am now rich: This comic is my favourate out of the four major mangas that is hosted in the first issue. It's legible, the characters are defined, and I know what the story is about. It's about an exorcist!! Three things on the plot does confuse me however, and one thing in the style irritated me. Firstly, the graffiti on the wall. Are they supposed to be blood? Because they REALLY looked like calligraphy brush on wall to me. If that IS the case, how is someone murdered? This makes me confused, and unless you are thinking of clearing up the confusion later using some dramatic device, confusion is not good. Secondly, Suki is poor to begin with right? She compares herself to beggers at Nathan Phillip square. If that's so, where'd she get the sofa and T.V.? Moreover, why would she reject $11.93 from the boy? That money is worthy of an hour's pay at fast food restaurant. Much better then begging for money (it took her 2 seconds to do the job). However, those are minor details that I honestly didn't pick up the first time through, so they're not major distractions. Finally, The boy grew from four to sixteen. That's 12 long years. However, Suki did not age AT ALL! If she's not immortal or vampiric, we have a problem. Her personality didn't change much either... EVEN HER CLOTHES STAYED THE SAME! Oh well, I'm just making fun of you now, Dina, there's probably a logical explaination behind it all. The thing in your style that irritated me is how you keep on poking at the suspension of disbelief. You made comments like "I can't believe you read all that bull." If it's Suki narrating, she would not have known it's written down on paper. Also the comment about "this is just a panel for us to look cute and pretty." You don't know how much attention it drew away from the comic. I usually don't mind those comments by the author mocking their own comic, however, this one is different. I tried to analyse it further, and now I believe I found my reason. The comic moves VERY FAST with it's relatively few frames and big pictures. It often leaves me wondering "what just happened?" However it's tolerable because when I go back a frame and read it again, I can understand fine. Because the plot is so fast however, I often find myself staring at all those "witty comments" for a big portion of the time I spend reading the comic. The nasty result of that is that I find myself AGREEING with the comments. Especially the ones in the last two pages. "You didn't read teh whole comic did you?..." and "If you think this comic makes no sense then you must be stupid." The effect is devastating because with not much going on, the majority of the reader's time is reading "hahaha why are you reading this?" I don't like being mocked by a stick figure. The comic makes sense, I understand what it's saying, what I don't have is an idea of where this comic is going. Is it even going anywhere? "The End!" is confusing. If it IS the only thing there is and there are no more explaining everything, then I don't know what to say. I hope you don't mind too much Dina. Feel free to flame me if you hate me.
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Post by Joseph on Oct 6, 2004 23:01:12 GMT -5
That's was both insightful and a bit overwhelming.
I agree with what you said and that,
The artists and story writers I beleive have a great deal of self confidence and honesty to share their stories and their art (their hobby essentially since they are engineers) without the years of previous experiences of constantly refining mistakes, discovering their talents. Everyone goes through that, even Picasso and other artist tirelessly practiced to better understand the world through their art.
I hope none of the creative staff does get offended by that, and take it as a kind gesture.
However I felt that it was rather intimidating in some fashion, sometimes you just got to figure things out on your own and from your friends.
Cheers.
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Post by Bryan on Oct 6, 2004 23:53:59 GMT -5
wow!!! i spent 20 min on readin this thing.... and still more wows!!! i c eternal night wasn't mentioned here... was it that bad that u don't feel it's worth ur time? ;D anyway, being the 1st one that got flamed on this forum ( don't ask if u don't know) i feel that i need to express somethings here... first is that, personally i love constructive critisisms, i feel that they help me to improve and actually help me develope the story more... however, i do feel that it is also important for pple that gives out these critisisms to be a bit more considerate and actually try to understand everythin surrounding the situation before giving them out... second, i don't know about anyone else, but i do feel that as a first issue goes, this was an accomplishment... sure there were problems on the road gettin here, even though some of them rn't even conquered yet, but it was an achievment nevertheless. and keep in mind, this is a first experience for all of us, we had nothing to learn from, so the road is of course really bumpy, and i have to commend everyone that worked so hard on this megazine, especially genna... it was amazing that she was able to hold everything together, with all the planning, meetings, fundraisers and other things... about the blurry printing, we were all shocked that this happened when we first got the megazines, but it's not due to anyone's fault, and of course we r working toward to fix it (well it's been fixed, hopefully , that printer company is very unreliable ) the third thing that i need to say is that this megazine is in no way a pure manga/anime picture megazine... in fact, wat makes this megazine unique is that it combines everything, there are comics, pictures, peotry, stories, and paintings... it's a mosaic of things, and i think that is wat makes it special. in fact i would find it boring if it was uniformally concentrated on mangas and anime, b/c i like diversity, that's wat makes things fun for me. okay, one last thing, and i'll cut things short since it's so long already... plz, plz understand that we r in no way proffesional, (well i think dina is a proffesional.. ;D) and we don't claim that we are... so most definetly there r gonna be things wrong with our products, but does this mean that we r ignorant enough, or that this gives us an excuse not to make improvements? personally, no. in fact, eternal night is my 3rd manga series, and it is in no way proffesional. in fact, w/ all the flaws, i'd say it's quite amateurish... but i'm also constantly striving for improvment. i don't think any artist is satisfied w/ their work, and can always find flaws to improve upon. but time in these days is hard to find... i'm sure that as an u of t student u can very much understand... trying to balance schoolwork and extracuriculars is no ez task... i guess wat i'm trying to say is, give us more time, and things will get better... i know it's frustrating to be hyped up about the megazine and have ur heart sink once u open it, but patience is a virtue, right? anyways, this is extra long already so i'll end it here.... (plz don't take my defence for the staffs as an indication that i think staffs r superior beings... )
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Post by Advent Childhe on Oct 7, 2004 0:37:19 GMT -5
Greetings:
It is late. I'll make this short.
Corrusader has some good points. Things require improvement. HM Yuan made a great comment from the side of the artists: they are all striving for improvement. Corrusader's attempt in trying to aid them in this quest is admirable. For that I applaud you.
HM is right about constructive criticism. This helps to propell this project to greater heights. Genna is also correct, and I concur: this is a miracle. A project like this is nigh impossible, especially when the people involved are also students of UT. For that, I must give them props.
Corrusader's comments, though insightful, are wanting. Criticism is good, but one must consider more than one's personal point of view. How can one's critisim be good for the cause if it came from one who sees only though a small and biased scope?
Narrative is important in all stories. If this was a magazine about literature, I would stand for this comment 100%. But it is not such a magazine, and therefore I must dissagree with such a comment. Manga is about style. Manga is about art. Plot is important, but not everything. If it were entirely about plot, then why draw it out?
Corrusader's commentary on the CP is good, but the delivery is wrong. For this to be constructive, the message must be constructive as well. What does one's opinion really matter? After all, like it or not, we are just readers; THEY are the artists. Care for their work, inspire their potential, but this must be done in a way that is acceptable to them. Corrsader's comment on "not caring if he gets flammed or not" clearly display's a lack of grace and care for the artists.
(Grin) allow me a moment of mirth, but if you wanted to talk about plot, boy, why don't you talk about the written stuff? (grin)
I digress.
Plot must be developed. Plot requires Narrative Time (ENG dept speaking). Expectations beyond this is unreasonable.
Many of the supposed points in question that were risen by Corrsader are points worth investigating. Yet, many are not. Style is of great importance to any plot line. Style of narration can be a tool to make the plot line even more interesting and provokative.
To conclude: -comments are good. Delivery is not. Need to work on social skills and etiquette on the forum -criticism is good. Opinions are ok. Advises are not. Give advises only when asked for. -mad props to Genna and all the staff that worked on this.
It is late.
Yours, always, Wayward Wayne
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Post by Tim on Oct 7, 2004 1:00:36 GMT -5
How can you talk about il Bruto and il Cattivo without il Bueno?
I think that it is good to have a means to express yourself. It's also great to be able to share artistic ideas with other people. But it is not easy. Regardless of what people say, it's really hard to collect works from people, compile a magazine, then get it published and distributed. So it's obviously not going to be perfect the first time. Especially when you consider that everyone that works on this does so as a hobby, or for shear pleasure. But when you find out how much work went into the magazine, considering the resources available, you'll be pretty damn impressed. I can only see this getting better.
Art needs criticism to grow, but I also think that there is a point where you draw the line -if for only the sake of etiquette. If you write a work or do an assignment or some project -do you think you'd want your instructor to write a book full of ways to improve yourself? No... like, half a page -tops. If you go to your friends, do you expect them to write volumes? No! They'll tell you face to face, or they'll write you an e-mail: something one-on-one. The same goes for art. If you want to see a movie, buy an album, or read a book or comic -you don't read a three to five page journal article describing or even deconstructing the work. You read a paragraph in Eye or Now (or whatever Arts/City Variety magazine you might read) telling you what's good about it, what's bad about it, and how it can be improved. You listen to word of mouth. So does the artist. But I don't agree with long-winded critiques on a one-on-one basis where it's meant to be a forum. I guess I really don't have to read it all.
Critisizing art shouldn't be taken so seriously because art is supposed to be fun. Constructive criticism always helps -but in the end the Artist has total control of what happens. The artist probably receives enough criticism as it is (and more, if this poor fool is too self-critical) and likely has a roadmap for improvement. So why be long-winded?
Waxing philosophical,
A.
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Post by Corrusader on Oct 7, 2004 19:01:53 GMT -5
I'm back. Thanks for reading my thread. @ Joseph Thanks for your understanding and accepting attitude to the critisms. If you're the author to Utopian Underworld, my respect for you just grew to a new high. For I myself know I bashed your work more then anything else. To accept critism is to have great courage indeed. P.S. I hate Picasso's work (the abstract ones.) I think that is the most DISGUSTING work ever done. My study of his work (in highschool, so short and shallow) just made me hate his pictures. @bryan It is my every intention to get to Every comic in this issue. However, as a fellow engineer, I am lacking in time. Being a maximumist (wordy), I can't get to all the mangas at once. The approach then become such that I will write about one manga at a time. So sadly, you're last. I certainly understand that everyone did their absolute best. This has been stated again and again. I also understand with more time, the magazine WILL improve. If it has not been made clear yet, you're all heros/heroines to me for making such a project work. What I am offering is a perspective that some of you might have missed because you looked at your work so many times. I'm offering a second opinion beside "ya, your work is great. Way to go guys." @ WaywardWayne You speak of a narrow and biased scope that I have and question my ability to comment on the magazine. You hit the problem at the heart. I do have a biased and narrow scope. I have near to zero knowledge of the magazine aside from what I see. However, this is PRECISELY the reason I think my comments a good idea. Having no background information to taint my opinon, I can see things more clearly for what they are. I am not critising your personality, passion, or determination. I'm critising your work for how it looks to me. After all do you want to hear "WOW your magazine is amazing because you put so much work into it!" or "WOW your magazine is really an awesome job well done!" You misunderstand me I think. I did not say a manga is 100% about plot. I said plot is the most important element in a manga. I find the art, and the style just the medium that an author use to write out his story. In text, the art is language, diction, mood and all that sparkle. However, underlying all of that, is the plot. I do admit it IS possible to make a manga work purely on style and art, however those are rare and far between. Shakespear's medium is plays. He used old english and comedy that no one now days get. I can't understand what he's talking about half of the time. He, in my opinion, has bad art (language, style, and stuff. So what kept Shakespear going for me? The plot. (Ok the poems too so he's not entirely horrible on the "art.") Yes, the style and art is important, but the plot might be more important then you think. Upon further consideration, you are right about plot. Plot needs time to be developped. I guess I'm too hasty to say "YOU NEED BETTER PLOT!" , however, the feeling that something is lacking stayed. I can only suggest that by plot I actually mean "things that keep the audience interested." Take Naruto, in the begining, I'm interested because it's a ninja story with the main character having whiskers. I like ninja stories. Take FMA, they pulled an episode out of nowhere into the begining just to get the attention of the audience. Take Berserk the anime, they moved THE LAST EPISODE into the front to do the trick. Maybe the thing I'm looking for is something that catches my attention. Something that makes me say "OMG that's kewl!1!1" Please pardon my unclear suggestions and changing views. Like you guys, I'm no expert. I'm just trying to portrait what I think the comics need to my ability. Lastly, I don't talk about the written stuff because I havn't read them. Comics always grab my attention far better then stories. I'm sorry writers, I'll get to them sometime. Another thing is that yes, the art OBVIOUSLY belong to the artist. It IS the manga of the ARTIST, not the readers. OF COURSE you can't believe everything I say, nor agree with me on everything. Please, take the comments/critiques with a grain of salt. Make that TWO grains of salt because this is an internet forum. DON'T think of this as a "professor" telling you what you must do to get marks. Just read it, and make that decision of "I don't like that suggestion, because..." yourself. @ Tim Saw I don't think I can be more impressed, but I'm ready to be proven wrong. Being a maximist, I either don't talk about what I think, or I talk without an end. I remember when I do my comic, I always bugged my friends for hours and hours of feedback. I figured if the artist don't care, they can always NOT READ THEM. However, if they do want to know what I have to say, I want it to be there. I post them here partially because it's the "comment" section. As well as I want to hear what others have to say. I thought I might be brave and make a start for constructive critisms on the magazine. As said before, critiquing art is NOT supposed to be taken seriously. They should have only the value the artists give them. No more, no less. As said before, take my comments and make what of them as you will. Look at me... another hour passed by. I still havn't got to what I signed on for. I guess that will have to wait until later. Sorry
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Post by Corrusader on Oct 7, 2004 20:50:20 GMT -5
SETA Prologue: A remote Academy.
This is a comic that has a coherent plot, focused character, and overall I don't find many major problems with the way the story is told.
The ONLY thing I'm confused on style/artwork wise (which threw me off for a long time) is the mother's expression at the end of first page. At first glance (and the second and third) I thought that her expression is normal. That she just look like that because she is far away. This makes the "What!? What just happened!?" very confusing. It's not until the fourth time through, I realized she's still recovering from shock of such a proposal as SETA.
The plot itself I can not speak so highly about however. First question that came to mind is if Von have everything as very average, why is his future "hopeless?"
Also, why would a SPY academy (who wants good, top-notched people) want him? Even if all these are going to be explained later in the story, the author should make the reader aware that she KNOWS such uncertainty exists. Maybe she can make Von's mom confused herself as well. Or have she ask the lady with glasses and the lady saying "we have our reasons."
Third thing I'm uncomfortable is if Von's mom (who, being so shocked, obvisouly knows what SETA is,) let Von go to the academy if she's so shocked at the offer?
Finally, if she truely knows, why wouldn't she explain what SETA is to Von so he is not so ill-prepared? Doesn't the pamphelet say something about it?
As you can guess, all of the above questions distract the reader from the comic and its plot. Making them saying to themself "okaay.....?" and reading on. Holes in the plot CAN be good, but I think what is lacking here is an implication that the author knows about the existance of plot holes, this way, those holes become intentional stylistic devices.
The rest of the comic is grand with the occasional chibi pictures and cute expressions. It does seem to lack some excitement or what I would call "scenes worth remembering." Fight scenes are very often used for this I think, humour is another common one.
The ending is a little weak too. I think the set-up to the relavation of "SETA is a spy training academy" is effective. However, in an ending, one generally want emphasise. Something to make the reader wanting more. Something that make the reader ask "what happened next?" Maybe changing the dialogue in the second last frame to "SETA is a highly secretive, largely unknown academy for spies!" Then the "A WHAT!!" in the last frame might be more appropriate and make a greater impact.
Another thing I just noticed is that the people don't have a very clearly defined character. However, this IS just the begining, so I may be way too ahead of myself talking about character. What I'm saying is this installation might be a little lacking on "climaxes" or "points of interest" or "conflict." More generally I'm saying this issue is a bit bland. Not to the point that it break the comic tho.
P.S. One thing I'd like to compliment you artists on is YOU CAN ALL DRAW BOOBIES!! It sucks because not being able to draw breasts correctly has always been my largest downfall.
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Post by Advent Childhe on Oct 7, 2004 23:54:18 GMT -5
Greetings:
It is late. Why is it always late?
But i've more energy this time, so I can be more like my usual self. Last post from me, as HM Yuan kindly pointed out, was way too robotic.
Thank you, Tim Taw. I admire you greatly. In the midst of this on-going disscussion of improvements, you brought out that the Good must also be mentioned. I also concur with your point on ettiquette.
Of Corrusader's comment on the narrow scope...well, this is the first time i've heard such pride in being an ignoramus. Background information does not taint one's views, it educates one so one can make more correct views. To forgo understanding and be adamant on the positive effects of one' opinions is...ill-advised. How, then, can the artists take your comments on anything seriously? Seriously!!
Revelation of plot is a stylistic device. Actually, nearly everything in the presentation of a story is a stylistic device. I do not pretain to know if the artists we mentioned intended to use them as such. Prehapes with Corrusader's comments, they will be able to utilize them to their specific mangas' advantage. But, revealing the plot line does not have to occur in any particular fashion. the artists will use it to their liking, like it or not.
If Corrusader's thirst for plot is reflective of the general masses, then most experimental writers would have to break their pens and kill themselves....some weeds for a lawn care company. A clear plot line is simplistic, though it does have its myriad of variations and twists, it is still very linear and clean. Storytelling does not rely only on this. If plot is the only thing that keeps Corrusader in his/her seat, then Corrusader would do well to learn to appreciate a broader view of the world of art...Time to move that narrow scope around abit.
(grin) If I may? Shakespeares works did not survive the centuries just because of plot. Technically, these plots have been in many different stories, and seen many older centuries and societies. Shakespeare's material lives on because of the poetry, because of the seemingly un-understandable language. If one cannot appreciate the subtle art that is story telling, then perhaps one should not be telling stories at all... after all... "silence is golden." (GRIN)
Corrusader's comments on the loop holes in the conversations of SETA does have its merits. I was thinking about that actually, especially about a Spy acadamy picking out an average student. However, as Corrusader and other posters (my self included) have indicated, such loopholes can be used to further "spice up" the plot. Corrusader's other comments on facial expressions may or may not have merit. As a fledgling artist, I can hope to do no better than Liz ( Mad props for you Liz), but I do believe these points to be the artist's style.
Linguistics in conversation require realism; this makes both the characters and their circumstances believable. Most conversations of the Mangas currently in CP perhaps should look into that. This comment also pretains to the written pieces.
Corrusader's suggestion on using fight scenes or superlative extrenuously-descriptive language to "hype up" the attention and/or suspense of the readers is applicable. However, this could be seen as an attempt to please the lowest common denominator of the "general concept" or more negatively, "stereotypes of Manga". This may or may not be positive for the artist. Many may want to break out of these cliched expectations, but free-thinkers may want a "plot twist of a plot twist" if you catch my drift.
It is late.
I'll save my suggestions on some other post.
Yours, always, Wayward
PS: credit where it is due. Thank you, Sis, for helping me with editing. "Silence is golden" is a Shakespearian quote.
PPS: About etiquette, I chose to ignore that slightly tonight, please permit me.
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Post by Bryan on Oct 8, 2004 0:47:40 GMT -5
ooh... can't wait for my review... ;D *co cks the flame thrower* anyway... i seemed to get a lot of pple that r confused about the layout of eternal night so i'll just explain it which is really simple.... the comic is read horizontally, from left to right, as u may already noticed, but there is a solid line in the middle of the page there... wat does that mean? it means one page is actually 2 pages, and that solid line is the divider... u may ask y did i do such a retarded thing, well there's 2 reasons: 1) i'm used to draw on pages that r half the size of a regular print paper, which is about the size of most manga books... and for me to suddenly change to drawing on a full size page is almost impossible w/o killin myself on tryin to lay everythin out properly... 2) genna wanted me to shorten the comic ... so i decided to kill 2 birds w/ 1 stone. ^^
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Post by Corrusader on Oct 8, 2004 12:53:07 GMT -5
@ WaywardWayne Ignorance is bliss has its merits. Why do we have juries? So they're not bogged down by the technality of law, and so they can use common sense to judge the guilt of a person. Why should we have reader's feedback? To bring forth a perspective unseen by artists. The artists, who probably stared at his/her work for so long that he/she can no longer decide what a reader would see from the work at first glance. If your logic is true, what right do you have to speak so harshly of my view? It is doubtful that you know me in person, even less my psyche and perspective. You're going on what you see on this thread, as I am going on what I see in the magazine.
I'm no longer sure if "plot" is the right word. For it is often hard, if not impossible to put a feeling down on words. If you would allow me to change my mind, I'd like to suggest by plot, I really meant "something to identify the manga with" all this time. I think of Naruto, and I think of ninjas and hand-signs. I think of FMA and I think of a big robot guy with a girlish voice. Maybe what is lacking is something interesting, a new idea perhaps, something out of the ordinary the comic attatches itself to. Like a signature, maybe.
You may be right about Shakespear and his work. I don't represent the view of the masses upon the matter. However, I feel if he were writing an English textbook with such language, I would die before I finish it. "Ye shallest form words into delicate sentences, yet, not so delicate, for the form is not rigid."
When I speak of the expression in SETA I'm referring to the style of the artist. I am complimenting her because it's always good if a manga has its own style. This might be an example of that signature I spoke of earlier.
I think, realistic stories require realistic language. A realistic detective story for example, would have tremendous emphasis on the diction. However, in the fantasy setting that all of the comics has adapted, I think realism in language is not so important.
I agree with how the steorytipical devices might appease to the "lowest common denominator." I think, how to keep the story interesting, while being intelligent, is the hard burden of the artist.
Eternal Night:
Bryan Thanks for the clarification. Let's just say... I was horribly confused. I was like WHAT IS THIS ABOUT? VAMPIRES WHAT? Now I understand I'm reading ACROSS TWO PAGES. Talk about that asshole filter. I think, if you want to continue this style, which is fine if one gets the layout, you might wish to provide a tutorial on "how to read Eternal Night." Like those manga for people who don't know to read it backwards.
After finding out how, I find myself liking your manga A LOT MORE. it's got good style, nice suspension of disbelief. The zoom change and camera angle change kept the story interesting. In the end, I only have two major complaints. (and a couple of small ones.)
So I'll start with the small complains first because they're least important. In the 1st frame of the 6th "page", the dark haired vampire disappears. Cain started talking to himself. If it's only for explaining things to the reader, (which is the impression from the frame) I hate people talking to themself to get the affect. I mean, if it's not in their character, please don't do it. Use a thought bubble instead. In fact, I don't even think the dark haired vampire disappearing NEEDS to be explained, the pictures did their magic this time. If Cain is showing his surprise, he shouldn't restate the fact. Maybe something like "DAMN! He's done it again." or "Why MUST he do that?"
The only thing confusing about the plot is in the third last page. I understand he's resisting going into vampire form, but that is about all. I mean who's hand is that? Why does it have a black sleeve? Is there any significance in the hand? The frame after the hand is MORE confusing. Garbage can? Is that the invitation sliding into the garbage? Obviously not because he had it again later. So what's that doing there and where's the significance? There are a lot of confusing things on that page. However, it's no big deal because in the end, he said "damned bloodlust." Which allows me understanding.
A final question. In the second last page, why is his intention to kill whoever sent the invitation? I thought he hates being a vampire? An explaination of this will be nice. Or at least a showing of you understanding it.
And now the major complaints. At times, especially when there's a conversation with Cain talking to another person, such as Lil. The text bubbles get confusing. What happens is that I have truoble understanding when each person say their lines. Take for example the 7th page from the end. In the second frame they exchange dialogues. Cain should say his line right before "No, just yours." However, the way I read it, which I think is the conventional way. I read "Um, do you make a habit of reading people's stuff..." first, then I go on to "Looks like an invitation." As you can see, it's not the best place to put it. In the next frame, I read "Oh okay" last, but until now, I'm still not sure where it SHOULD go.
A way to solve this problem you may have done already, on several occasions. On page 59, first page, last frame. You used a dash thing to indicate "switch speaker." This WILL take some time getting used to, and to people who don't know the rule, it WILL be confusing. I think I seen another solution being make text bubbles with that little arrow thing pointing at different people. Whichever way you do it, as long as the reader can understand, it's fine.
My other major complaint is why are things drawn the other way on page 7? I just don't see much point doing it like that (other then being an asshole filter.)
Yes, that is all. The blood bag is really cool, after its explained. Often, when I find I can't clearly show what's going on, I start putting tags on things. I'll do something like Blood bag ------->
But anyway, try out your own way, and see what works out the best.
P.S. I'm changing my mind, I think I like Eternal Night the best out of all the manga.
[Edit] Finished my post.
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Post by Bryan on Oct 8, 2004 16:37:15 GMT -5
well thnx for the compliment, and u r right not a lot of pple gets how the comic is supposed to be read, so guess a little tutorial wouldn't be bad, but not right now... anyway... about cain talking to himself, actually, as u will c later on, it is somethin that he does often, and i guess it is he's way to cope w/ how he's been living for the past few yrs... which is alone.... well the 3rd last page, i kinda had a hard time doin it, to get it right, but if u've read last few pages closely, on the table there's a bag of blood, wich is signified by the red cross on it, which as mentioned before is where he's volunteering at. and it's his hand that's reaching for the bag of blood, and the hand did not have a black sleeve, but that was the bag, and it's the emptied bag that's sliding into the trash can. as for his intentions to bring trouble (trouble do not equal to killing ;D) to the person who sent the invitation, i will not go into that since it will be explained in the 2nd chapter. but i will say this, b/c of a vampire's physiology, they have extremely sensitive smell, which is y garlic irratates them... and let's just say that he has a vague idea of wat kind of person sent that invitation, and he does not like it, and knows it will not be a peaceful night... well i hope my explainations clears things up, and thnx for the input... [edit] almost missed ur modifications there, i thought u were gonna make a new post or somethin, guess not... anyway, it's good of u to point out the problem w/ the speech bubbles fittin in in the right order... i've always had a problem w/ that ... i've seen a lot of comics that order the speeches in a vertical order, and i tried it that way, but b/c of type of font i used, it took up way too much space and would cover up a lot of the pictures, so i had to cram some of it into tiny nooks... which turned out really bad ... but i'm thinkin of doin it by makin the first speaker's bubble highest, and when there's a change of person speakin, i'll make a straight line that connects to the next bubble of the same person's next line, like wat i did in the 3rd and 4th frame of the conversation b/w cain and lillian... i don't know if that's a good convention, but i'll try it out one more time and if it still sux i'll have to change it for the 3rd chpt... about the page that got turned around, well u don't c that often, but sometimes a mangaka will turn a page around and to draw in a big scene to make it fit... i guess i was just tryin it out, and obviously it didn't work out the way i had hoped.. but meh, u live and learn right? anyway this does not happen in the next chpt, so don't have to worry about that anymore... meh it's late... i wanna sleep now... so that's all i'll write... ;D
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Post by Velata on Oct 8, 2004 23:05:17 GMT -5
Um... if I may...?
I believe this may have been a belated response, however, there are things that I would like to bring to Corrusader’s attention. And since “brevity is the soul of wit”, I will try to keep this one short.
Ignorance may have been bliss, but perhaps only to those who has few other alternatives. As “an opium for the masses”, it will eventually prove to be more harmful than the temporary good that it brings. Juries, as pointed out as an example, have no previous knowledge of the finer technicalities of law, nor any prejudice toward the case in point. Corrusader probably inteded to use this example to show that impartiality could come from ignorance, and a child’s opinion may be the most truthful. However, what was forgotten here was the fact that jury selection has a dark side that many choose to ignore. Juries are chosen by the lawyers from both the Crown’s (in Canada) and the defendent’s side. They are chosen for their suitability to judge the case in point, which - unfortunately - involves choosing them based on their preconceived notions and hard-boiled stereotypes about certain critical aspects of the case that will be going into trial. What was chosen about the jurors are not their innocence, but their set of backgrounds and their biased views on this world, which the artful lawyers hope to manipulate to their own favour. Therefore, citing juries as an example of how being ignorant allows a person to be impartial has a dangerous caveat, which makes it an inadequate example.
And speaking of ineffective examples, I would also like to point out that when speaking of realism in a creation, the time of creation has to be taken into account. Shakespeare was, at his time of Tudor England, a very realistic writer, who endeavoured to use the language of the common vulgar in his plays, and still make them palatable to his wealthy and noble patrons. If nothing else, the man could be applauded for attempting this difficult task. If the Bard’s English is incomprehensible at this day and age, it is through no fault of his own. Citing the inability to understand Tudor English as a way to demonstrate the fact that plot has more precedence in your judgements over material and style therefore carries little weight.
Also, when one tries to carry a point across, a little forethought is perhaps warranted. It is a bad form to recount your words and renounce your own opinions. Unsuitable examples are but one part of this. Being careful with one’s words will also prevent such unsavoury things from happening again. Having started out by pointing a glaring finger at plot shortfalls of each manga presented in the magazine, it diminishes your own conviction and the merit of what you have to say by doubting your own definition of “plot”. Changing it into a “signature” does little to ameliorate the situation as well. It implies the fact that Corrusader has a preconceived notion of what a “good” manga should be, a certain style that it has to be in, and a certain way it has to be told. It also shows that Corrusader has little regard for any other pieces that do not conform to his notion of"Goodness.” If that was the case, then the comments and critiques suggested by Corrusader earlier would amount to the horrors of Damastes, measuring men by his all too-rigid bed.
Alas, I am no Theseus. I believe that the forum needs someone who has believes in his own cause and has the termerity to speak it out loud. If nothing else, it was interesting to find someone who would read so much into stories that are presented in a medium that was so generally overlooked. That by itself was a feat that earns my admiration. I would like to enocurage Corrusader to post further comments, since they raise questions that only an outsider could see and find troublesome.
I do agree that the magazine is in its infancy. I support the views of the artists who had finally managed to make this magazine a reality. I, however, believe that constructive criticism is also important, and those who provide them are precious to the growth of the project as a whole. However, I must, as a member of this forum, beseech each one of you to refrain from ad hominum attacks (i.e. flames), and be artful and tasteful when it comes to criticisms.
Speaking of which, I do believe that I have failed to be as brief as I could be. My apologies.
P.S.: As per Wayward Wayne’s previous example, credits should be given to my editor, William Shakespeare (Hamlet), Karl Marx, and the Greeks for writing down their own views about the world they lived in.
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